follow this link about cycling with fish

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this one for a fishless cycle

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I'm glad you included the second link, Clunkster, as the first article seemed to fizzle out before completion.

And on an element for which I've had questions for a while. Everyone looks at that angle of Ammonia - Bacteria - Nitrite - Bacteria - Nitrate. So, water change to reduce my Ammonia, that's the job! What happens now to my Nitrosomonas bacteria? Do half of them starve? Does this mean less Nitrites and dead Nitrobacter bacteria? Do all of these dead Nitro-bacteria pose a threat to my fish?...

Seeding from another tank is fine. I myself, wouldn't do it from someone elses tank, unless I knew that tank very well. Certainly never from an LFS.

I feel, when you sort all this "Fish-less Cycling Vs.." stuff out, that it's all a bit of wank. Except the bit about building your fish population slowly, to allow your bio-filter to grow in same. That's very solid, I think. And it's also why I've drawn this conclusion.

Many Ammonia & Nitrite spike charts that I've seen, run the full course in 30 - 40 days. It seems to me that the Fishless Cycle is going to take 2/3's of that anyway.

So why should you go without fish? Either way, you still need to continue (for life) with incremental population building. Is 4 - 6 fish, say Guppies or Cory's, really going to unbalance things so much, that they'd suffer the "mustard gas" effect?

Does a fish population, with that sort of body mass and correctly fed, really produce health threatening spikes of that magnitude. And what's wrong with a water change? Just because your filter is not cycled! I honestly don't believe, that a 'healthy' water change at this time, would unbalance the Bio-filter, or unduely impede bacteria establishment. (by healthy, I mean 'aged' or 'treated' tap water).

I mean, this is the balance you must maintain for the life of the tank. Why not start it at day one. A step at a time.

i honestly dont think ther are any hard & fast rules its each to there own but everyone has ther own oppinions i just thought i would post the links to give people an idea

Sorry Clunkster, good content, really. I was going for the 'Heavy Debate' bit. I'm in that stupid mood tonight.

What do you think of the Ammonia bottle 'kick-start', with no fish for two months? Is that your scene? I really see it as a methodology to suit the experianced fish-keeper. The paradox is: the experianced fish-keeper doesn't require it!

Imagine a newby - even better, newbies Mum! Rockin' up to the LFS. "Sorry Maam, take this bottle exhibit A, this test kit B, and this other test kit C, oh, and this one too D. Read this water chemistry 101 leaflet, nuh, yeah, the english page is up the back, that's it, pop back in two months, and perhaps you can have a fish then, maybe".

Having said all that, I'm now wondering what's in those quick-cycle Bacteria bottles. Is it bacteria with an increadibly long genetically augmented life-span? Or is a cocktail of Ammonia, and Nitrite?

personaly i prefer the fishless cycle which is probly due to the fact i mainly keep catfish and it has been the method i have allways used so i cant realy comment on using the fish cycle but yea i know what your getting at, is the newbies mum gonna get so confused reading all the destructions & saying sod it you can have a hamster instead, but i have also seen the the poor souls tormented by the kids "i want a nemo & i want it now" (that film has caused a lot of problems) i can remember about 15 years ago being asked by a very unhappy lfs to leave their shop as they were tryi ng to sell some poor unsuspecting family a compleate marine setup including the fish and all i did was point out that they would not be able to set the tank up & put the fish in, in the same day
regarding the bottle kick start no thats not my scene neither is the 2 month wait
if i am starting a new tank up then the way i do it is to use old water (from water changes from exsisting tanks) mixed with fresh treated water, depending on what filltration i am going to use i.e internal or external then i will set it up in an exsisting tank for a while so as to seed the fillter this is how i kick start a system i have found over the years & many tanks this has usually worked for me & after more than 30+years its worked for me
i also think it helps if you have at least a basic understanding of water chemistry/or a book

I would do that Kana, because the sooner people understand what happens in a fishtank to keep the fish alive the better imo. To a complete layman how do you say the fish killed themselves in clear water if they have no understanding of the nitrogen cycle and what its doing to the fish? A shop especially should be teaching people what the filters actually there for in the first place, not to add oxygen to the water or remove solids because neither of these problems should kill fish, but there to convert 2 invisible poisons into a not so bad form that we can take out with water changes.

Lets face it 90% of the problems we see in keeping fish are down to ammonia or nitrite being detectable in the water, if this is sorted before the fish are introduced then thats one less thing to worry about, and newbies worry about their new pets a lot .

I was going to say that I just used the fishless Cycle, but that's not quite right. My Eheim 2213, straight out the box, tubes in the tank, plug in the socket, off we go. Full compliment of fish (probably overstocked). However, the original and established Fluval 2 was still in place operating. Now, if I wanted the 2213 for another tank, then Bob's your uncle! And I guess this is equivilant to your 30 yr method, Clunkster.

LFS' are still pulling the Nemo stunt here. I figure if I can't keep a Blue Ram, I won't bother trying a Marine Tank. There's too much of the farmers' "She'll be right mate!", in me, for that level of care.

On first read, Monkeh, I thought 'that's a really good point'. But I feel Clunksters story of being tossed out of the LFS is more pertinent. eg What's more important to the LFS, your education, or a quick sale. Bearing in mind the content of Clunksters original Link above - "The hardiness of a fish = Ability to survive". We're talking a % chance of the fish dying at say Day 1, day 10, and day 30.

Ok, we know it's inhumane, but the LFS knows there's pretty good odds on that bag of fish.

I have here the little brochure that came with my first tank. Lovely litle charts of the Nitrogen cycle, and "Biological Filtration Initiation" (spike chart). Notes on treating and heating tap water. Don't add all fish at once, in fact leave most until after the first six weeks of operation.

I don't think I've seen anything like this since, outside of a proper textbook. And I know, at the time, I had no idea what they were prattling on about. But I did wait the six weeks.

My LFS used to laugh at me. I remember him saying "I've never seen anyone take so much care of the fish". I used to wrap the plastic bag (very carefully) in my jumper, to keep the heat in, and slip it all gently into my backpack.

A friend of mine runs a light industrial Pumping business. I haven't looked it up yet, but we were discussing this morning the properties of Ammonia molecules. Weight in comparison to water. Mass etc. How the Ammonia molecules behave within the water solution. All this of course leading toward a mechanical method of filtering out Ammonia. There you go Clunkster, you've got time on your hands!

well you asked so follow this link

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